I wish I could have met John...

19/8/2013

I wish I could have met John--he'll be on my list as someone with whom I hope to have tea in Heaven someday! Perhaps I'll join all "The Vagabonds" for some tea someday in Heaven. Only thing is, in Heaven, there won’t be any theology to debate!’ Kate from Ohio USA

6 Comments

Dick

16/9/2013 15:12:27

That’s such a very sweet comment Kate – and I’m sure people who knew John and loved him will be delighted at reading it. It’s good to see John’s inspiration crossing the great pond! He was actually quite a paradox – he had a quirky theatrical charisma (but not a noisy one, or a self obsessed one). He was, of course, much loved for his individuality. When I went to the Vagabonds anniversary bash a month ago a lovely woman called Meg who came along was remembering fondly how John, when he a server at the Eucharist, always had his pink boots visible under his cassock. However, John was also one of the most down to earth blokes I’ve ever met; absolutely sold as a rock and a very good and kind friend. His Christian faith – in terms of his beliefs - was pretty ‘conservative’. He was orthodox on the Trinity, the Incarnation, and the Virgin Birth and believed very much in the world to come and the restoration of all in Christ. He also held to a high view of the sacraments. One of the most heated debates I ever remember at a Vagabonds was after we’d visited a Quaker meeting and John turned to me – and he didn’t mince his words – and protested that what he’d just experienced in no way compared to an Anglican Eucharist. That was cool – it’s what good dialogue is all about; people stand in their own truth and are honest about their differences. My answer? Well I pointed out there’s no accounting for tasted and that some who have worshipped in both ways see similarities – especially in the deep stillness that people sometimes feel during, and immediately after the Eucharist and the deep stillness that can be at the heart of a truly gathered Meeting for Worship. Also I gave a bit of historical perspective on how the Quaker’s silent meeting were originally derived from Anabaptists Spiritual groups on the Continent who suspended celebration of the Eucharist during the religious wars there in the early modern period. People were slaughtering each other over the meaning of the Eucharist so they entered into inaugurated mourning by suspending the rite until Christians would one day understand its true meeting with purity of heart. At that point he nodded satisfied. But he wanted clarity from me – and no nonsense either.

I'm sure some others have some stories about dear old John to post.

Kate

17/9/2013 20:20:58

Now I am even more certain I would have liked John (and will like him someday when we do meet in Heaven!)

As you mentioned that John believed in the "restoration of all things," I am interested: Did he influence your beliefs in ultimate reconciliation, or did you influence his theology, Dick?

And, perhaps even more pressing, I have to ask... What inspired John's pink hair and boots? :p

I also thought your note about the Quaker debate was especially interesting. I think the Quakers were wise in withholding the Sacrament in mourning for needless slaughter. But what else would you expect a Quaker-at-heart to say? :)

Finally, I just realized that it is John's photo featured in your article. Looks like a very kind soul -- a picture is worth a thousand words, as they say!

Dick

18/9/2013 16:17:00

I think John alone inspired John’s pink hair and pink boots! :-D – and sometimes he had pink streaks in his beard too! We must have looked like chalk and cheese at a Vagabonds – I always dress ‘sensibly’. Oh I’ve had my moment of trying to be fashionable or eye catching when I was younger – but I could never quite carry it off :-D

Yes John has an enormously kind face too – it’s a great photo of him.

Hmmm – did John influence my theology (inasmuch as I have an ‘ology’)? Well he certainly broadened my outlook. I was expecting a bunch of post evangelicals at the Vagabonds – instead God sent me John, Emma, Grant, David, Ian, Cornell, Leon old Uncle Tom Cobbly and others. John and Emma were a lot younger than me – and I used to show willing and attend their fancy dress parties when invited; being well past the age for fancy dress myself, I wore my sensible clothes. I felt a bit like – well a priest in a pub at these gatherings. But it’s always good to keep in touch with what the young things are up to :-D

But did John influence my belief in universalism? I feel a further excursus coming on. Elizabeth Barrett Browning once said that ‘universalism’ is the most beautiful word in the English language. To her it meant a belief in the final restoration of all in Christ; but it also meant the struggle for universal education (especially for girls) and for universal franchise, and generally for universal human dignity. I think John’s living out of the old London saying ‘it takes all sorts to make a world’ certainly influenced my ‘universalism’ at a deep level – and I know I’m not alone in this. Indeed I remember the last time I saw him his final words – apart from goodbye and good luck – were about his belief in the importance of being a witness in the way we live our lives. John was good.

I know that universalism is a hot issue among evangelicals at the moment – especially in the USA where the Calvinist legacy never goes away. I think one criticism of universalism in the USA at the moment many at St James’s would make (if they follow developments there in this matter) is that sometimes a belief in the eschatological dignity of all human beings can be merely an exercise in positive thinking and make no difference to how people behave towards their fellow human beings in this life. I think you may have seen this Kate. Now I know that Gregory of Nyssa, the Universalist Orthodox Father, was the first Christian to develop a systematic critique of the ancient system of slavery – and he did this in the name of the eschatological dignity of all. I’d whole heartedly agree that if ‘universalism’ is really going to be a truly beautiful word it has mean acting in a universal way in the world now, as well as faith in a universal restoration. (By the way I see Jacques Ellull the Christian Anarchist and Universalist gets a shout somewhere on this website).

I’m talking round the issue a bit – having a good old waffle :-D John and I, despite surface differences both believed in universal restoration. I think Universalism actually runs quite deep in Anglicanism. That’s’ not to say that all Anglicans are Universalists – certainly not; but there is a poetic logic and a historic logic which makes belief in universalism sit very comfortably with Anglicanism. I could give you a brief historical sketch if you’d like Kate?

All the best (and thanks for the reply:-) 

Dick

Kate

19/9/2013 19:03:44

You know I always enjoy an excursus from you, Dick. :) I'll try to reply with a bit of my own!

From my experience living in Midwest America, your description of American universalists is only partly accurate. Sadly, universalism is not truly a "hot topic" among American evangelicals. Rather, pastors and laypeople, alike, have generally dismissed the notion of universal restoration in Christ as heresy.

It seems to me that American Universalists fall under one of three categories:

1.) There are American universalists, but they are rarely professing Christians. I think these folks are the people you described; they adhere to universalism as more of a tool of "positive thinking" than as anything with much substance. It in no way compels them to share their faith for the help of others, because there is no substantial "Good News" to evangelize -- just a vague jumble of feelings about eternity.

2.) Many Christians, it seems, have an unspoken hope that universal restoration is possible, but they are too afraid to voice doubt about hell, a doctrine preached with such conviction. As a result, they never research the possibility that universalism may be biblical. They likely don't even know the term "universalism." If they do, it's in the context of something for "hippies" and heathens."

3.) Me. :) Okay, there are a few others, of course, but being a Christian universalist anywhere -- much less Midwest America -- can get rather lonely! Since most people fall under one of the other two categories, it's difficult to debate universal restoration. Either they are not Christians and are thereby completely uninterested in discussing the likes of Robin Parry or Gregory of Nyssa, or they are Christians but are too afraid to openly discuss a "heretical" doctrine.

~

That being said, I'd appreciate a historical sketch as to why universalism fits particularly well with Anglicanism. Sadly, I can't be a "real" Anglican, however, because the pesky Atlantic ocean separates us. (I once read Episcopalians are now a bit separated from Anglicans? Is this true?)

And, as one last note, I like John's fashion. At first, I thought he was dressed for a Renaissance Faire! (Do those even exist in England?)

~ Kate

Kate

19/9/2013 19:03:52

Dick

20/9/2013 16:18:54

Hi Kate –

Uh huh– I see your point about Universalism USA and you are the expert here. I wonder if it depends where you are in the USA? I know Cornell (Jackson) who is chair of the Vagabonds is American – I trust his word implicitly and if he’s lying to me he’s doing a fabulous impersonation of an American so all is forgiven :-D Maybe he’s got some thoughts on this one too. But you are brave to stand out in a crowd, very brave.

Well I’ll put my thinking cap on about Anglicans, Episcopalians and Universalism and get back to you when I’ve had a ponder (I know what to say but just need to have a think about how to say it so it’s not too boring). I mentioned this topic to David (Carter) of the Vagabonds when I saw him at the anniversary jolly. He went all bright eyed and bushy tailed so perhaps he’ll be interested in a chat about it too.
‘
Renaissance Faires’ – we don’t need them over here because we are already a heritage theme park :-D But yes, since you point it out, I can imagine John in the company of Kit Marlowe, Will the Bard and co.

In Christ our hen

Dick

Your comment will be posted after it is approved.

I wish I could have met John...

Leave a Reply.

This page features some of the comments made in response to the St James's Vagabond group